@jirskyr you didn’t answer what I said though mate .
And the fact that you think this is a case history repeating is puzzling IMO.
The only time I could even remotely compare this too was when Hoppa was fingering bums ,McGuinness was out in the disco bickies , and Terry Lamb thought it was all a big joke .
Which after that they put a broom through the place hired sheens , and not just him , had a change of ceo , and chairman , because the whole joint stunk .
So if that was the outcome of the only IMO, comparable period to this one (this right now is way worse IMO) , then how can you , once again I ask the same question, define the position of sale/ change at the top , as extreme .
It’s not . The board , bar the 2 recent hires , need to go .
Lee needs to go . Pascoe , needs to go . And not because I have any idea if they are good at their job , but because as long as they are here , then we cannot gain any kind of foothold or form grounding , as they are a clear through line to the failure that is wests tigers of the last 12 years .
It’s soo bad that I would also consider a name change and brand reinvention once the broom does go through .
Pascoe is good with money . Of which I personally have used , as an excuse/reason , for why he should be kept around .
But I’ve also stated recently , that I believe that need for a thrift ceo , had passed , and we now need one who is cunning and willing to do , much like Gould is with his pub shares in Landry hotels , just about anything to get us over the top .
It’s akin to world war 2 and Churchill , as an extreme analogy . There are guys in charge in parliament , who were pretty good at running a fiscal country , but once the bombs started dropping didn’t have the correct character to do what was necessary. Along comes Churchill and the rest is history .
That’s a borderline offensive analogy I know , but it proves the point of what I’m saying .
I don’t believe Pascoe has done a bad job . In fact based on what I believe his remit was , which was to make a viable , healthy business , he has done an exceedingly exceptional job , of which he should be proud of himself . I personally will be grateful for his diligence and nous to make the COE , and march the tigers into a professional business that can have sustained financial success .
but that period and chapter has been closed , and it’s now time to open up the ammunition factories , build those tanks and get this war machine going .
And I don’t think he, or the board , are willing to get down and dirty in the nasty trenches , that is the wider nrl back rooms.
I was hoping the release of Ofahengaue was a catalyst for an impending elite 7 signing, timeframe probably suggests otherwise now. I'm starting to think there's a another Wooden Spoon in 2024. I've got real concerns that the Club won't survive this. Too many rusted on fans are walking away.
@lestronge Agree 100% we need a wartime CEO/Chariman/Board combination.
These people in these roles seem to think we are doing fine as long as they keep club open and collect the paychecks!
Guys big news, DT reporting we might be going after Brodie Croft! 👍
As it stands, the only 6 or 7 we have signed for 2024 is Douehi, who could possibly miss the entire Season. Does anyone think Brooks deciding to leave blindsided the Club, or they lowballed him with a view to signing others. I cannot figure this out.
Sorry if you guys have already discussed this.
From Brooks' mouth the club lowballed him and gave him 2 days, over a weekend to take it or leave it. Brooks also said it wasnt Sheens or benji. Pascoe & Lee have lost the plot, the club and the fans with it.
The undermining of this club needs to stop.
so that is two players Joffa and Brooks where the coaches in Sheens and Marshall were happy to have them yet some at the club (not in coaching roles were not)
We are a stupid club
Guys big news, DT reporting we might be going after Brodie Croft! 👍
You know that this is exactly how tihs is going to end. Croft or Flanagan partnering Wakeham.
@jirskyr times like this require boldness. Who deserves to keep their job (in your opinion)?
Did you sign the petition?
I wouldn't know who deserves to keep their jobs or not - I haven't got any first-hand information to form an opinion.
No I have not signed the petition.
What in the following do you not agree with:
The signatories of this petition demand that the Wests Tigers organisation be subjected to a thorough external review, encompassing all aspects of the organisation.
This would include all aspects of governance, operational leadership, administration, day to day operations and football department operations/structures.
This petition will be shared with the senior management of Wests Tigers/Wests Ashfield.
I didn't say I disagreed with it, I just said I didn't sign it. I've never signed a petition in my entire life.
@jirskyr so essentially your position is to take exception with others opinions whilst having no opinion of your own?
No that would not be accurate. Specifically to your comments, I responded to the one about selling and sacking everyone:
the only way we’re going to be successful is if we are sold and they get rid of everyone and start again. I’m talking all the admin, coaching staff, everyone. Get rid of every bit of Tigers DNA.
My opinion is that this is an extreme suggestion and will not get Tigers out of our mess. Not only that, I think it's extremely unlikely to happen.
This petition that is going around - even if it was agreed to by Holman Barnes - there is no way the final recommendation would be to "sack everyone". There would be a systematic review with key suggestions, but the chances of the club doing an external review and then sacking everyone as a result, are zero.
After these initial comments from me to you, you then attempted to draw me into a discussion about what my plans for the club would be. You wanted me to tell you who deserved not to be sacked. I don't have a concrete opinion about either of these two questions and that's because I don't have enough first-hand data to satisfactorily draw a conclusion.
So I can both critique something you said whilst not having a 10-point plan myself for saving the Tigers. I don't think anyone on this forum has a legitimate idea how Tigers can be fixed, because we just don't have enough information. And again, the petition is actually suggesting the opposite of fans developing their own opinions / strategies, the petition calls for a professional, external, detailed review.
Therefore I would in fact say that your suggestion to sell the club and sack everyone is not consistent with the petition at all, assuming that you have signed it. You don't need to conduct a measured systematic external review if you are planning on selling the club and sacking everyone.
@jirskyr you didn’t answer what I said though mate .
And the fact that you think this is a case history repeating is puzzling IMO.
The only time I could even remotely compare this too was when Hoppa was fingering bums ,McGuinness was out in the disco bickies , and Terry Lamb thought it was all a big joke .
Which after that they put a broom through the place hired sheens , and not just him , had a change of ceo , and chairman , because the whole joint stunk .
So if that was the outcome of the only IMO, comparable period to this one (this right now is way worse IMO) , then how can you , once again I ask the same question, define the position of sale/ change at the top , as extreme .
It’s not . The board , bar the 2 recent hires , need to go .
Lee needs to go . Pascoe , needs to go . And not because I have any idea if they are good at their job , but because as long as they are here , then we cannot gain any kind of foothold or form grounding , as they are a clear through line to the failure that is wests tigers of the last 12 years .
It’s soo bad that I would also consider a name change and brand reinvention once the broom does go through .
Pascoe is good with money . Of which I personally have used , as an excuse/reason , for why he should be kept around .
But I’ve also stated recently , that I believe that need for a thrift ceo , had passed , and we now need one who is cunning and willing to do , much like Gould is with his pub shares in Landry hotels , just about anything to get us over the top .
It’s akin to world war 2 and Churchill , as an extreme analogy . There are guys in charge in parliament , who were pretty good at running a fiscal country , but once the bombs started dropping didn’t have the correct character to do what was necessary. Along comes Churchill and the rest is history .
That’s a borderline offensive analogy I know , but it proves the point of what I’m saying .
I don’t believe Pascoe has done a bad job . In fact based on what I believe his remit was , which was to make a viable , healthy business , he has done an exceedingly exceptional job , of which he should be proud of himself . I personally will be grateful for his diligence and nous to make the COE , and march the tigers into a professional business that can have sustained financial success .
but that period and chapter has been closed , and it’s now time to open up the ammunition factories , build those tanks and get this war machine going .
And I don’t think he, or the board , are willing to get down and dirty in the nasty trenches , that is the wider nrl back rooms.
I'm sorry but you will need to recheck your club history.
Yes 2001 was an extraordinary embarrassment for the reasons you stated, but Terry Lamb was not let go until June 2002. The CEO did not change at all, it was Steve Noyce from 2000 until he resigned in 2008. The Chairman only changed because it was on a rotating schedule - they changed the Chair every year from Balmain to Wests and back, under the terms of the joint venture.
I disagree with you about 2023 being worse than 2001, and again I think you are showing recency bias. Back in 2001-2002, Tigers had basically burned all their merger money from the NRL, we had multiple failed high-cost signings, factional in-fighting between the clubs, highly significant and embarrassing on and off-field player incidents, very little emerging or top-level talent.
10 years later Balmain was on the verge of folding and took out a huge loan from the NRL, the club did a decade-long deal with Events NSW to guarantee game-day income. 2017 we lost Tedesco, Moses and Woods and then the coach jumped ship.
I see all of these eras as worse than 2023, except for the wooden spoon. But we shouldn't kid ourselves about wooden spoons when only the horrible Parramatta and Newcastle sides saved us from the wooden spoon in 2013 and 2015 (Newcastle only on F/A).
I view the decade of non-finals as a consecutive series of failures, not as one single failing. This is because the stakeholders have changed so much from year to year during this period. I do understand that other people have a different opinion about accumulated non-success.
And then, yes, your suggestion is extreme. Even to go so far as to rebrand the club. I can't think of too many clubs that have rebranded recently, but the one example was Gold Coast and it didn't do anything at all for their fortunes. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just saying it's an extreme suggestion, at the outer edge of all the possible strategies we could employ. So I did answer your question, just now, and previously, about how these suggestions are extreme. I don't want to really get to a point where I have to get my dictionary out to define for you what extreme means.
@jirskyr so essentially your position is to take exception with others opinions whilst having no opinion of your own?
No that would not be accurate. Specifically to your comments, I responded to the one about selling and sacking everyone:
the only way we’re going to be successful is if we are sold and they get rid of everyone and start again. I’m talking all the admin, coaching staff, everyone. Get rid of every bit of Tigers DNA.
My opinion is that this is an extreme suggestion and will not get Tigers out of our mess. Not only that, I think it's extremely unlikely to happen.
This petition that is going around - even if it was agreed to by Holman Barnes - there is no way the final recommendation would be to "sack everyone". There would be a systematic review with key suggestions, but the chances of the club doing an external review and then sacking everyone as a result, are zero.
After these initial comments from me to you, you then attempted to draw me into a discussion about what my plans for the club would be. You wanted me to tell you who deserved not to be sacked. I don't have a concrete opinion about either of these two questions and that's because I don't have enough first-hand data to satisfactorily draw a conclusion.
So I can both critique something you said whilst not having a 10-point plan myself for saving the Tigers. I don't think anyone on this forum has a legitimate idea how Tigers can be fixed, because we just don't have enough information. And again, the petition is actually suggesting the opposite of fans developing their own opinions / strategies, the petition calls for a professional, external, detailed review.
Therefore I would in fact say that your suggestion to sell the club and sack everyone is not consistent with the petition at all, assuming that you have signed it. You don't need to conduct a measured systematic external review if you are planning on selling the club and sacking everyone.
Two things can be right at the same time. At the bare minimum I would like an independent, external review. My preference would be the sale of the club. You may view this as extreme, but I think continuing on the same path is guaranteed failure and I'm mystified that you can't see that. Holman Barnes have had 23 years to run this club, and during that time we've only made it into the top half of a salary cap competition 3 times. That's 13%. They've had their shot, they've failed, and they need to move on.
You mentioned in another thread how it's 'cyclical' and the Tigers will come good eventually, and that's just a load of garbage. In a competition like this where there is a salary cap at play, management of everything top to bottom is how to attain success. You can't just sit back and hope things change, you need to effect change. The reason we're in this position is because we didn't act years ago when it was very clear Pascoe was completely out of his depth. It's only gotten worse since Lee came on board as a "hands on" chairman because now you've got two idiots bouncing stupid ideas off one another.
I didn't ask for a 10 point plan, but you could give your opinion on something. You seem incapable of having a view or opinion on anything, only commenting and mostly critiquing other posters.
@jirskyr so essentially your position is to take exception with others opinions whilst having no opinion of your own?
No that would not be accurate. Specifically to your comments, I responded to the one about selling and sacking everyone:
the only way we’re going to be successful is if we are sold and they get rid of everyone and start again. I’m talking all the admin, coaching staff, everyone. Get rid of every bit of Tigers DNA.
My opinion is that this is an extreme suggestion and will not get Tigers out of our mess. Not only that, I think it's extremely unlikely to happen.
This petition that is going around - even if it was agreed to by Holman Barnes - there is no way the final recommendation would be to "sack everyone". There would be a systematic review with key suggestions, but the chances of the club doing an external review and then sacking everyone as a result, are zero.
After these initial comments from me to you, you then attempted to draw me into a discussion about what my plans for the club would be. You wanted me to tell you who deserved not to be sacked. I don't have a concrete opinion about either of these two questions and that's because I don't have enough first-hand data to satisfactorily draw a conclusion.
So I can both critique something you said whilst not having a 10-point plan myself for saving the Tigers. I don't think anyone on this forum has a legitimate idea how Tigers can be fixed, because we just don't have enough information. And again, the petition is actually suggesting the opposite of fans developing their own opinions / strategies, the petition calls for a professional, external, detailed review.
Therefore I would in fact say that your suggestion to sell the club and sack everyone is not consistent with the petition at all, assuming that you have signed it. You don't need to conduct a measured systematic external review if you are planning on selling the club and sacking everyone.
Two things can be right at the same time. At the bare minimum I would like an independent, external review. My preference would be the sale of the club. You may view this as extreme, but I think continuing on the same path is guaranteed failure and I'm mystified that you can't see that. Holman Barnes have had 23 years to run this club, and during that time we've only made it into the top half of a salary cap competition 3 times. That's 13%. They've had their shot, they've failed, and they need to move on.
You mentioned in another thread how it's 'cyclical' and the Tigers will come good eventually, and that's just a load of garbage. In a competition like this where there is a salary cap at play, management of everything top to bottom is how to attain success. You can't just sit back and hope things change, you need to effect change. The reason we're in this position is because we didn't act years ago when it was very clear Pascoe was completely out of his depth. It's only gotten worse since Lee came on board as a "hands on" chairman because now you've got two idiots bouncing stupid ideas off one another.
I didn't ask for a 10 point plan, but you could give your opinion on something. You seem incapable of having a view or opinion on anything, only commenting and mostly critiquing other posters.
I'm telling you an independent review will never recommend sacking everyone at the club. Highly unlikely to recommend selling the club either, because the remit would almost certainly be to deliver to the owners / Board suggestions for now they can run their club better, not to suggest that in fact the entire Board remove themselves and sell the club to someone else. So in that respect, your preference and the external review will be mutually exclusive.
re my opinions - I gave you several opinions, you even quoted two back to me just now - that I think NRL success typically is cyclical, and that selling the club and sacking everyone is extreme. It's also my opinion that you actually cannot form an opinion about how to fix the internal operations of the Tigers, without knowing exactly what those internal operations are.
For example - you refer to Lee and Pascoe as "two idiots who bounce stupid ideas off one another". Having met Pascoe many times and knowing someone who met Lee H, they are definitely not idiots. You may disagree with them and their opinions or strategies, and I can see how it is easy to dislike their public personas, and the lack of success is plain for all to see, but they are definitely not idiots. That's too cheap, too easy a word to fling about in what is a complicated situation. You can sack or remove Pascoe and Lee because they haven't brought success to the club, not because they "are idiots".
And then of course Pascoe and Lee do not act independently of the Board... which I assume you agree with, and which is what leads to your conclusion that they should all go and the club should get new owners. If that actually happened, if they sold the club, I wouldn't be at all upset, I'd be cautiously optimistic (I usually am)... but I'd still consider it an extreme action to take. Extreme actions usually mean increased risk, and for every Russell Crowe you get a Nathan Tinkler.
By the way, thinking that success is cyclical is not the same thing as "sitting back and hoping". But I recognise a lack of power for the supporter base to affect change. I think the petition is admirable but my honest opinion (there is another opinion for you) is that HBG will ignore it.
For example - you refer to Lee and Pascoe as "two idiots who bounce stupid ideas off one another". Having met Pascoe many times and knowing someone who met Lee H, they are definitely not idiots. You may disagree with them and their opinions or strategies, and I can see how it is easy to dislike their public personas, and the lack of success is plain for all to see, but they are definitely not idiots. That's too cheap, too easy a word to fling about in what is a complicated situation. You can sack or remove Pascoe and Lee because they haven't brought success to the club, not because they "are idiots".
When it comes to anything rugby league related, they are both complete idiots. It's been proven. I'm sure Lee is good in law and Pascoe must be ok at whatever he used to do, but regarding rugby league, they are completely clueless bordering on braindead.
