To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
I agree with this fully and It is why I was impressed with Steve's suggestion. Our admin has serious issues but I can't say with any confidence I know exactly what the problem is, Steve's idea would allow the club to find out and then make the appropriate organisational and structural changes to improve those issues. That review needs to be the first step.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
All good. If the "sack him mentality is inherently flawed" then tell us all why you were happy that Madge was shafted? As you said so clearly in your earlier response. The dissonance in your argument is amusing, at best.To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
All good. If the "sack him mentality is inherently flawed" then tell us all why you were happy that Madge was shafted? As you said so clearly in your earlier response. The dissonance in your argument is amusing, at best.To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
With respect Mercy, there is no dissonance in my argument at all, you are just not reading what I'm saying, you are reacting to what you want me to say.
The fact that I was "Happy that Madge was shafted" and we remain winless at the bottom of the table is the whole point.
Let me try to explain it again. Last year, the problem was that we couldnt win games, we lacked all structure, nothing was ever improving and other than Joffa, not a single player improved. That was the problem. I wanted the club to fix the problem and as a result of that I was "happy that Madge was shafted". Mercy, did sacking Madge fix the problem or does that problem still exist? The "sack him" mentality doesnt fix the problem unless you fix the structural and systemic issues that plague the club or appoint someone so powerful or proficient at their job as to overcome those systemic issues. Therefore, the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed. I could put it any more simply and there is zero dissonance.
The same applies to Brooks, Sheens, Pascoe or Lee. See my post above regarding Pascoe for more detail.
So, I think you're saying that your happiness of Maguire being shafted was in hindsight, wrong?All good. If the "sack him mentality is inherently flawed" then tell us all why you were happy that Madge was shafted? As you said so clearly in your earlier response. The dissonance in your argument is amusing, at best.To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
With respect Mercy, there is no dissonance in my argument at all, you are just not reading what I'm saying, you are reacting to what you want me to say.
The fact that I was "Happy that Madge was shafted" and we remain winless at the bottom of the table is the whole point.
Let me try to explain it again. Last year, the problem was that we couldnt win games, we lacked all structure, nothing was ever improving and other than Joffa, not a single player improved. That was the problem. I wanted the club to fix the problem and as a result of that I was "happy that Madge was shafted". Mercy, did sacking Madge fix the problem or does that problem still exist? The "sack him" mentality doesnt fix the problem unless you fix the structural and systemic issues that plague the club or appoint someone so powerful or proficient at their job as to overcome those systemic issues. Therefore, the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed. I could put it any more simply and there is zero dissonance.
The same applies to Brooks, Sheens, Pascoe or Lee. See my post above regarding Pascoe for more detail.
And the hope that a new coaching group would improve the situation is also wrong, given the evidence so far in 2023. And, if that's not what you mean, then why shouldn't Sheens et al be judged by the same standard as Maguire was?
And, more to the point, what are those "structural and systemic issues" that you mention? Please list them.
And, while you're at it, tell us how they are any more impactful on the results of Sheens et al in 2023 than they were on Maguire et al.
No dissonance you say? I beg to differ.
So, I think you're saying that your happiness of Maguire being shafted was in hindsight, wrong?All good. If the "sack him mentality is inherently flawed" then tell us all why you were happy that Madge was shafted? As you said so clearly in your earlier response. The dissonance in your argument is amusing, at best.To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
With respect Mercy, there is no dissonance in my argument at all, you are just not reading what I'm saying, you are reacting to what you want me to say.
The fact that I was "Happy that Madge was shafted" and we remain winless at the bottom of the table is the whole point.
Let me try to explain it again. Last year, the problem was that we couldnt win games, we lacked all structure, nothing was ever improving and other than Joffa, not a single player improved. That was the problem. I wanted the club to fix the problem and as a result of that I was "happy that Madge was shafted". Mercy, did sacking Madge fix the problem or does that problem still exist? The "sack him" mentality doesnt fix the problem unless you fix the structural and systemic issues that plague the club or appoint someone so powerful or proficient at their job as to overcome those systemic issues. Therefore, the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed. I could put it any more simply and there is zero dissonance.
The same applies to Brooks, Sheens, Pascoe or Lee. See my post above regarding Pascoe for more detail.
Mercy, are you even reading my posts? I am saying quite clearly, that it didn t fix the problem. To be blunt, no I dont think it was wrong, because it wasnt getting better under Madge and he had done all he could. I am quite clearly saying it didnt fix the problem, because the whole point Im making is without systemic change, sacking one bloke, isnt going to fix that problem.
I was happy with the concept of the new coaching system developing our coaches like we are supposed to be developing players so we dont need to beg a Ciraldo every 2-4years.
Regardless, after 5 rounds, the problem clearly hasnt been fixed. Its bigger than that.
And the hope that a new coaching group would improve the situation is also wrong, given the evidence so far in 2023. And, if that's not what you mean, then why shouldn't Sheens et al be judged by the same standard as Maguire was?
Well first of all, Sheens et al have been here for 5 rounds. Madge also lost the first 5 rounds last year. I am quite clearly stating the problem is bigger than Madge v Sheens.
And, more to the point, what are those "structural and systemic issues" that you mention? Please list them.
The ones I know about:
- Lack of separation between management and football department, loss of football operations manager role,
- Lack of a football manager to oversee junior development, recruitment retention,
- Possibly involvement of CEO & Board in retention decisions
I am not intimately involved with the team and club, there will be MANY more I dont know and that is why something like Steves KPMG independent review is a good start.
We have been the worst club in the NRL for 12 years. Tha tis not Tim Sheens or Michael Maguires fault, it is systemic and we do not have the structures in place to climb out of this because the same systems that got us here are still in place. not just people, systems.
And, while you're at it, tell us how they are any more impactful on the results of Sheens et al in 2023 than they were on Maguire et al.
Mercy have you been a fan for more than 12 months? Have you been a fan since 2011? If so, you know the answer to this.
No dissonance you say? I beg to differ.
Well i cant put it any clearer. Some only see what they want to see.
Add Lee and we are in agreement of where to start… 😂😂😂😂To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
The club under those two have been going backwards, but it’s always someone else’s fault. It’s interesting that they will blame a coach for the decrease in win rates but ignore their own part they play in that process over a longer period of time.
I don’t believe they would ever do an independent review because I am sure they know what the results would be and it wouldn’t be pretty.
The place is delusional, we have at least one board member who fervently believes we’ll still make the 8 this year.
Brooks absolutely needs to be elsewhere. I want a divorce. I’m over the crap that has been dished up since 2018 when he won the Dally M Best Halfback (I still can’t figure how he did as he wasn’t that great even then). I also believe it went to his head to be honest. Time to move on…
- Lack of separation between management and football department, loss of football operations manager role,
- Lack of a football manager to oversee junior development, recruitment retention,
- Possibly involvement of CEO & Board in retention decisions
I am not intimately involved with the team and club, there will be MANY more I dont know and that is why something like Steves KPMG independent review is a good start.
To be honest, we don't know the impact of any of those either, which is why I think Steve's idea is the best idea I have heard on a long time. The strength of his idea is to get this review above the board, have it coming from Wests Ashfield (Holman Barnes Group) and maybe an accurate picture of the entire club can be formed. The complication with Steve's idea is the cross over of directors between the Holman Barnes Group and the Wests Tigers.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
You are right but the only way it would ever be done is if it was initiated by the NRL. The Holman Barnes Group are part of the problem and it needs to be above them. The NRL hold the name Wests Tigers, trademark and issue the license. The NRL needs to step in.- Lack of separation between management and football department, loss of football operations manager role,
- Lack of a football manager to oversee junior development, recruitment retention,
- Possibly involvement of CEO & Board in retention decisions
I am not intimately involved with the team and club, there will be MANY more I dont know and that is why something like Steves KPMG independent review is a good start.
To be honest, we don't know the impact of any of those either, which is why I think Steve's idea is the best idea I have heard on a long time. The strength of his idea is to get this review above the board, have it coming from Wests Ashfield (Holman Barnes Group) and maybe an accurate picture of the entire club can be formed. The complication with Steve's idea is the cross over of directors between the Holman Barnes Group and the Wests Tigers.
Add Lee and we are in agreement of where to start… 😂😂😂😂To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
The club under those two have been going backwards, but it’s always someone else’s fault. It’s interesting that they will blame a coach for the decrease in win rates but ignore their own part they play in that process over a longer period of time.
I don’t believe they would ever do an independent review because I am sure they know what the results would be and it wouldn’t be pretty.
The place is delusional, we have at least one board member who fervently believes we’ll still make the 8 this year.
Brooks absolutely needs to be elsewhere. I want a divorce. I’m over the crap that has been dished up since 2018 when he won the Dally M Best Halfback (I still can’t figure how he did as he wasn’t that great even then). I also believe it went to his head to be honest. Time to move on…
And thats it? Just sack them? Doesnt matter who replaces them? Just slot them into the same systems?
If that happens I walk. Ive had it
- Lack of separation between management and football department, loss of football operations manager role,
- Lack of a football manager to oversee junior development, recruitment retention,
- Possibly involvement of CEO & Board in retention decisions
I am not intimately involved with the team and club, there will be MANY more I dont know and that is why something like Steves KPMG independent review is a good start.
To be honest, we don't know the impact of any of those either, which is why I think Steve's idea is the best idea I have heard on a long time. The strength of his idea is to get this review above the board, have it coming from Wests Ashfield (Holman Barnes Group) and maybe an accurate picture of the entire club can be formed. The complication with Steve's idea is the cross over of directors between the Holman Barnes Group and the Wests Tigers.
Mate I'm 110% on board but I don think on its own it will be enough. It definitely needs to be independent like KPMG but after that it needs the footy knowledge folded into it. Hate to say it but the best thing the club would do is pay $2M for a Bellamy or Bennett to come on board as football manager, immediately after the KPMG review to fold that footy system knowledge into it.
You are right but the only way it would ever be done is if it was initiated by the NRL. The Holman Barnes Group are part of the problem and it needs to be above them. The NRL hold the name Wests Tigers, trademark and issue the license. The NRL needs to step in.- Lack of separation between management and football department, loss of football operations manager role,
- Lack of a football manager to oversee junior development, recruitment retention,
- Possibly involvement of CEO & Board in retention decisions
I am not intimately involved with the team and club, there will be MANY more I dont know and that is why something like Steves KPMG independent review is a good start.
To be honest, we don't know the impact of any of those either, which is why I think Steve's idea is the best idea I have heard on a long time. The strength of his idea is to get this review above the board, have it coming from Wests Ashfield (Holman Barnes Group) and maybe an accurate picture of the entire club can be formed. The complication with Steve's idea is the cross over of directors between the Holman Barnes Group and the Wests Tigers.
But they wont because despite the fact we couldnt beat time with a stick, Pascoe has the club making money and holding its own. IMO if the onfield doesn't change in 12 months it will spill over into the financials but thats where we are now.
I agree that knee-jerk change just to appease gave frustration isn't going to fix our systemic issues.
The KPMG style full review is the only way to fix our systemic issues. It's clear we have a complicated structure, and it board and exec need much higher calibre business and football experience to get is out of this
However I don't think Pascoe can stay - his role is now untenable. I think he's exit would open a good window for the board to undertake a review.
If the board don't do a review now, which they lead. The NRL will step in soon and do the review for them.
- regarding Brooks, we can't become top 8 with him in the halves. Can see him playing 14. But top quality organising 7 and x factor 1 must be our 2 next signings - change this team overnight
Top 8 2023
I agree that knee-jerk change just to appease gave frustration isn't going to fix our systemic issues.
The KPMG style full review is the only way to fix our systemic issues. It's clear we have a complicated structure, and it board and exec need much higher calibre business and football experience to get is out of this
However I don't think Pascoe can stay - his role is now untenable. I think he's exit would open a good window for the board to undertake a review.
If the board don't do a review now, which they lead. The NRL will step in soon and do the review for them.
- regarding Brooks, we can't become top 8 with him in the halves. Can see him playing 14. But top quality organising 7 and x factor 1 must be our 2 next signings - change this team overnight
The weird nepotic system of our board is well documented but they pay the piper. It is possible for that system to work IF you have an experienced and proficient chairman who drives the organisation. That is not Lee.
It is not Pascoes job to drive structural and systemic change, it is Lee's job. If he loves the club like he says he does, he should be driving this change, thats his job. Everyone complains about Lee because of his media dribble and persona. Thats not the problem. The fact that the board (led by the Chairman) isnt driving change is the problem.
400,000 fans are about to walk anyway. Wests Tigers have already lost a generation. Unless the NRL steps in and organises an independent review the Holman Barnes Group will continue doing what they are doing. So yeah let’s start with sacking those who have been responsible for the debacle to date.Add Lee and we are in agreement of where to start… 😂😂😂😂To me that’s just an excuse to keep the status quo and do nothing. As far as I’m concerned there are no excuses. Instead we should be looking at what we can do to move forward. The time of doing nothing about the front office has well and truly passed."I was happy that Madge got shafted". That's a weird thing to put in your case that sacking someone is potentially not the answer.By your reasoning then Madge wasn't the problem? You think Sheens/Marshall is the answer?Tigers fans: The media always attack the Tigers over meaningless things, I wish they would leave us alone.
Also Tigers fans ; "Oh look, Pascoe was looking at his phone in the dressing room!!!! Thats disgraceful! Look, here is a link to the media bleating about it!"
Can you believe he was in Brisbane kicking a football on the field? Off with his head.
At this point, Pascoe could be in an orphanage on Christmas Day handing out expensive gifts and the fans would still go for his throat. About as popular as leprosy right now.
Fans have run out of people to blame
Literally, Pascoe is one of the few things we haven't changed.
Assuming The Board never changes itself voluntarily, I do hope Lee H and Pascoe leave. At least then we can stop talking about needing to overhaul the management, and put it to the test. It doesn't seem to matter that we've actually had several prior managers (Noyce, Longmuir, Humphreys, Meyer) and none of them oversaw long periods of Tigers success, nor does anyone remember for a while that Tigers were in financial trouble and required an NRL bail-out and Board intervention with independent members assigned.
And Lee H might be unpopular but we weren't winning when Marina Go or Fatty O'Barrell were the chairperson either.
But sure, move them both on and then we can see just how quickly Tigers do or do not improve. I am still of the opinion that on-field improvement is 95% the responsibility of the coaching staff, pathways and the players, not the admin. I don't subscribe to Mike's idea that making typos or other minor mistakes trickle down to on-field performance. Like I said before, we just built an $80M CoE and that hasn't yet impacted player performance one iota, and surely that would account for more than a typo or other inconsequential error?
Maybe then, once we've moved everybody on, we'll have to sack the merchandise lady and the canteen chef because they are the last "common denominator" of the lack of success.
Well put and I agree with you. I was happy that Madge got shafted, it hasnt fixed the problems though. Sacking Pascoe & Lee similarly wont fix anything, may have the opposite effect. That list you have of Noyce, Longmuir, Humpreys & Meyer got us to the point where the NRL had to step in and save us. Under Pascoe the only thing saving us from being kicked out or relocated is the off field performance of the club.
That is my whole point. Sacking someone is potentially not the answer, the replacement is potentially.
But, I know I will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. And, as soon as possible.
Then you are misunderstanding me. Let me try to be clearer. You will be happy when the hapless Sheens/McDonnell/Marshall/Furner facade is punted. What if they replace them with an 80yo Alan Jones and they dont win a game for another 4 years? Will that have fixed the problem? Is that the answer?
Im not suggesting we do nothing, just that the "sack him" mentality is inherently flawed and with the board calling the shots it is actually odds on that we would go backwards. It needs to be a wholistic approach to the system, structurally. Replacing A with B is unlikely to fix it. It needs a new system that systemically addresses all the shortcomings of the organisation. New positions need to be created and the right people put in those positions. This board is unlikely to do this and will IMO very soon bow to fan and media pressure and sack Pascoe and replace him with someone mediocre without changing the way we do things. That person will jump in, make noises and increase the sales of caps. Nothing will change.
IMO I thought we were starting to take the right step making Sheens Football Operations Manager, but that has been thrown out the window with the baby and the bathwater.
Steves suggestion of a KPMG investigative review is a good first step. Then I would seriously appoint a review of how other clubs in the NRL, AFL & NFL set up their structures and agree on the structure of the organisation and then appoint the best people we can find to each of those positions.
The person responsible for all of the above is actually Lee.
But yeah........Punt Pascoe....and Brooks.
The club under those two have been going backwards, but it’s always someone else’s fault. It’s interesting that they will blame a coach for the decrease in win rates but ignore their own part they play in that process over a longer period of time.
I don’t believe they would ever do an independent review because I am sure they know what the results would be and it wouldn’t be pretty.
The place is delusional, we have at least one board member who fervently believes we’ll still make the 8 this year.
Brooks absolutely needs to be elsewhere. I want a divorce. I’m over the crap that has been dished up since 2018 when he won the Dally M Best Halfback (I still can’t figure how he did as he wasn’t that great even then). I also believe it went to his head to be honest. Time to move on…
And thats it? Just sack them? Doesnt matter who replaces them? Just slot them into the same systems?
If that happens I walk. Ive had it
