Some levity in these dark times
https://twitter.com/thaRaptorP/status/1997063281274671310?s=20
this is the way. Shame these guys out of our club. These guys have been living in their little bubble for too long.
Re the calls for “stability” from the HBG…bloody hell, they’ve been the definition of unstable year in and year out.
I’m sorry, but the point of no return has been passed and we can never go back to where we were.
The best prediction of future behaviour is past performance and the HBG have used up any goodwill they might have once held.
and then there is reality.
HB are useless, treacherous scumbags, however they do have some important features that matter:
1. They have a historical link to the original merger and our history,
2. They have a willingness and in fact an obligation under the Registered Clubs Act 1976, to donate millions of $$ to the WT without taking any money out of the WT. WT just made its first profit and it is important that it stays in the WT coffers and not returned to the owners.
Any "new" owner of WT is guaranteed a multi million dollar loss for many, many , many years if not forever and that is exactly what we SHOULD want. Any owner that is not a licensed club is going to require an ROI and take any profit back.
This is happening right in the middle of an environment where the NRL is trying to expand the game in $$ and geographically. At present the NRL has plans for an odd number of teams and has too many teams in Sydney.
But ...ok.....Ill play along.
Im sure the most likely scenario from that petition is that the Tigers find our fairy godfather who will come along and lose millions every year, never take any money out, never have any influence in football and the NRL will definitely, definitely go along with that despite the fact that they want less Sydney teams and want to spread the game geographically.
Im sure that the process of finding this fairy godfather and getting rid of the wicked old owners wont take years and millions of dollars we dont have, resulting in Richo, Luai & Bula leaving and no prospects of signing new players.
Im sure that fairy godfather will also pour millions into juniors and grassroots, or alternatively the wicked old owners will
magnanimously continue to fund our juniors and allow us unfettered access to them....wouldnt they?
Im sure that the NRL wouldnt relocate a Tigers team that has zero links to the original merger and history.
Im sure Bulldogs, Parra & Penrith wouldnt cannibalise our area and juniors in a second.
pretty sure you must be right......
Alternatively the NRL can appoint an administrator or implement a governance plan and we go back to last Sunday.
Be careful what you wish for.
Re the calls for “stability” from the HBG…bloody hell, they’ve been the definition of unstable year in and year out.
I’m sorry, but the point of no return has been passed and we can never go back to where we were.
The best prediction of future behaviour is past performance and the HBG have used up any goodwill they might have once held.
and then there is reality.
HB are useless, treacherous scumbags, however they do have some important features that matter:
1. They have a historical link to the original merger and our history,
2. They have a willingness and in fact an obligation under the Registered Clubs Act 1976, to donate millions of $$ to the WT without taking any money out of the WT. WT just made its first profit and it is important that it stays in the WT coffers and not returned to the owners.
Any "new" owner of WT is guaranteed a multi million dollar loss for many, many , many years if not forever and that is exactly what we SHOULD want. Any owner that is not a licensed club is going to require an ROI and take any profit back.
This is happening right in the middle of an environment where the NRL is trying to expand the game in $$ and geographically. At present the NRL has plans for an odd number of teams and has too many teams in Sydney.
But ...ok.....Ill play along.
Im sure the most likely scenario from that petition is that the Tigers find our fairy godfather who will come along and lose millions every year, never take any money out, never have any influence in football and the NRL will definitely, definitely go along with that despite the fact that they want less Sydney teams and want to spread the game geographically.
Im sure that the process of finding this fairy godfather and getting rid of the wicked old owners wont take years and millions of dollars we dont have, resulting in Richo, Luai & Bula leaving and no prospects of signing new players.
Im sure that fairy godfather will also pour millions into juniors and grassroots, or alternatively the wicked old owners will
magnanimously continue to fund our juniors and allow us unfettered access to them....wouldnt they?
Im sure that the NRL wouldnt relocate a Tigers team that has zero links to the original merger and history.
Im sure Bulldogs, Parra & Penrith wouldnt cannibalise our area and juniors in a second.
pretty sure you must be right......
Alternatively the NRL can appoint an administrator or implement a governance plan and we go back to last Sunday.
Be careful what you wish for.
a couple of rebuttals:
1) there is not an obligation from wests Ashfield to fund WT, their obligation is to fund rugby league in their local area, that was really about local league juniors not an NRL team
2) the NRL club made money this year (from a low base) and so there is not really an obligation of an owner to “lose money every year” at all. A professionally run NRL club would make money given how much the NRL grant pays for (and the grant is only going up). The most successful clubs - broncos, storm etc are privately owned, the broncos are listed on the stock exchange. There are a variety of successful NRL ownership models but the key ingredient is competent management
3) HBg has roots to our history but the people running it have show time after time that their priority is magpies over WT which is not what the club needs or what fans want. An owner aligned with the WT and not Balmain or magpies seems to be the only way to distance WT from the culture wars of the heritage clubs. I had though once HBG took control of the club that they would embrace the merged entity however it seems that they were only emboldened to make decisions that bias magpies (nsw cup playing as magpies not merged entity, the jersey wars, insisting on playing at Lidcombe etc).
I am open to a private consortium as owners as long as there are protection for fans (home base/colours/juniors etc), I am open to giving the license to Wests Group (although I want to know more about their objectives, looking into their governance and financial track record they seem successful and normally governed ie their board is voted on by members), I am theoretically open to HBg retaining ownership but only after HBg is cleansed of the current generation of leaders and on the condition that the NRL board is fully independent and the debenture system is scrapped. In extremis I am open to selling the franchise to easts in Brisbane as long as they play 3 games a year at Leichhardt oval. This is probably my least preferred option because I believe after 25yrs there is actually something special about the merged entity and the people like Benji who have put their lives into trying to make it better despite all the crap from the power hungry idiots above them.
what I absolutely will not accept ever is Dennis and is idiot mates thinking that they run our club. They absolutely do not. We have let them eat their party pies and drink the free booze on our dime for the last 25 years and I am done with them. I actually want them banned from WT events of all types, I don’t even want allowed to come to a game because there are few people who have done more to ruin this club then this group of absolute imbeciles. I’m done. Either they go or me and thousands of people like me are going to quit this club.
what I absolutely will not accept ever is Dennis and is idiot mates thinking that they run our club. They absolutely do not. We have let them eat their party pies and drink the free booze on our dime for the last 25 years and I am done with them. I actually want them banned from WT events of all types, I don’t even want allowed to come to a game because there are few people who have done more to ruin this club then this group of absolute imbeciles. I’m done. Either they go or me and thousands of people like me are going to quit this club.
Same here, spot on.
Wests Tigers Podcast - Talking everything Wests Tigers since 2018!
Re the calls for “stability” from the HBG…bloody hell, they’ve been the definition of unstable year in and year out.
I’m sorry, but the point of no return has been passed and we can never go back to where we were.
The best prediction of future behaviour is past performance and the HBG have used up any goodwill they might have once held.
and then there is reality.
HB are useless, treacherous scumbags, however they do have some important features that matter:
1. They have a historical link to the original merger and our history,
2. They have a willingness and in fact an obligation under the Registered Clubs Act 1976, to donate millions of $$ to the WT without taking any money out of the WT. WT just made its first profit and it is important that it stays in the WT coffers and not returned to the owners.
Any "new" owner of WT is guaranteed a multi million dollar loss for many, many , many years if not forever and that is exactly what we SHOULD want. Any owner that is not a licensed club is going to require an ROI and take any profit back.
This is happening right in the middle of an environment where the NRL is trying to expand the game in $$ and geographically. At present the NRL has plans for an odd number of teams and has too many teams in Sydney.
But ...ok.....Ill play along.
Im sure the most likely scenario from that petition is that the Tigers find our fairy godfather who will come along and lose millions every year, never take any money out, never have any influence in football and the NRL will definitely, definitely go along with that despite the fact that they want less Sydney teams and want to spread the game geographically.
Im sure that the process of finding this fairy godfather and getting rid of the wicked old owners wont take years and millions of dollars we dont have, resulting in Richo, Luai & Bula leaving and no prospects of signing new players.
Im sure that fairy godfather will also pour millions into juniors and grassroots, or alternatively the wicked old owners will
magnanimously continue to fund our juniors and allow us unfettered access to them....wouldnt they?
Im sure that the NRL wouldnt relocate a Tigers team that has zero links to the original merger and history.
Im sure Bulldogs, Parra & Penrith wouldnt cannibalise our area and juniors in a second.
pretty sure you must be right......
Alternatively the NRL can appoint an administrator or implement a governance plan and we go back to last Sunday.
Be careful what you wish for.
a couple of rebuttals:
1) there is not an obligation from wests Ashfield to fund WT, their obligation is to fund rugby league in their local area, that was really about local league juniors not an NRL team
Agreed wrt WT under the Act but HB are obliged under the license agreement, and as you say they ARE obliged under the Act to fund junior leagues. A fairygodfather isnt.
2) the NRL club made money this year (from a low base) and so there is not really an obligation of an owner to “lose money every year” at all. A professionally run NRL club would make money given how much the NRL grant pays for (and the grant is only going up). The most successful clubs - broncos, storm etc are privately owned, the broncos are listed on the stock exchange. There are a variety of successful NRL ownership models but the key ingredient is competent management
The NRL club "made money" this year,(ONCE IN 25 Years) after receiving an NRL grant $19,639,166 and a grant from HB of around $2M (not disclosed for 2025, 2024 $2,175,974, 2023 $1,716,662, 2022 $1,847,714). That is ONCE in 25 years. So without their owners, WT are losing around $2M per year. So YES, based on 25years of data, there is a requirement to lose around $2M per year.
Souffs, under the generous ownership of Russell Crowe have their hand in his pocket every year.
yes Brisbane, who have had the whole of Brisbane to draw from for 40 years has made a profit. Very few NRL clubs make a profit and Brisbane make a profit based on geography 40years of continued success. Tigers have both of these things against us.
3) HBg has roots to our history but the people running it have show time after time that their priority is magpies over WT which is not what the club needs or what fans want. An owner aligned with the WT and not Balmain or magpies seems to be the only way to distance WT from the culture wars of the heritage clubs. I had though once HBG took control of the club that they would embrace the merged entity however it seems that they were only emboldened to make decisions that bias magpies (nsw cup playing as magpies not merged entity, the jersey wars, insisting on playing at Lidcombe etc).
The point being, with no link to our history, and the original joint venture agreement, what obligation does the NRL have to keep WT alive in Sydney? None. What incentive would they have? NRL want less sydney teams and national expansion.
I am open to a private consortium as owners as long as there are protection for fans (home base/colours/juniors etc), I am open to giving the license to Wests Group (although I want to know more about their objectives, looking into their governance and financial track record they seem successful and normally governed ie their board is voted on by members), I am theoretically open to HBg retaining ownership but only after HBg is cleansed of the current generation of leaders and on the condition that the NRL board is fully independent and the debenture system is scrapped.
I hate HBG, passionately but they are a completely separate organisation to WT. As fans of WT we have no say over how HBG run their cesspit and neither do the NRL. What the NRL does have control over (and fans to a much smaller degree) is the interface between HBG and WT. If the NRL (PVL) can fix the shareholders agreement and set the independence in stone via the NRL license, QED.
In extremis I am open to selling the franchise to easts in Brisbane as long as they play 3 games a year at Leichhardt oval. This is probably my least preferred option because I believe after 25yrs there is actually something special about the merged entity and the people like Benji who have put their lives into trying to make it better despite all the crap from the power hungry idiots above them.
you are on your own there. If they go to Brisbane or anywhere other than LO/CSS/Sydney Im done.
what I absolutely will not accept ever is Dennis and is idiot mates thinking that they run our club. They absolutely do not. We have let them eat their party pies and drink the free booze on our dime for the last 25 years and I am done with them. I actually want them banned from WT events of all types, I don’t even want allowed to come to a game because there are few people who have done more to ruin this club then this group of absolute imbeciles. I’m done. Either they go or me and thousands of people like me are going to quit this club.
Im with you here.
I guess the question is, if we all agree that HBG needs to be functionally removed from majority control of the NRL franchise (majority independent board) then wha actual incentive does HBG have to continue contributing financially to the club? We can’t agree that HBG (or this iteration of HBG) needs to be kept away from making decisions by the NRL and that they will be happy to continue making financial contributions. These blokes seem very much of the mind that they want to control everything, reportedly the coup was because the NRL club was making decides they disagree with. It just doesn’t compute that they will be interested in staying as owner if they can’t make decisions (nsw cup team as magpies, ugly crayon orange jersey to troll Balmain fans, anger at majority games at CSS because of previous feud with Wests Group). The only logical end point is a change of ownership because a lobotomised HBG ownership model incongruent with HBg’s behaviour to date. What do you think the best ownership model would be if HBg were to look to sell?
I guess the question is, if we all agree that HBG needs to be functionally removed from majority control of the NRL franchise (majority independent board) then what actual incentive does HBG have to continue contributing financially to the club?
What incentive did it have last week? Last Year? The year before that?
Exactly what is HBG getting out of the Tigers that is keeping them here, that they couldnt get under an independent WT board?
and the more important question is.....why would/should we care? A non independent WT board is not sustainable. The club will fold. It needs a truly independent board and if HBG crack the sulks and pull out of the license agreement, then you either get your private ownership that you want or the club folds/NRL rebrands in QLD or elsewhere.
We can’t agree that HBG (or this iteration of HBG) needs to be kept away from making decisions by the NRL and that they will be happy to continue making financial contributions. These blokes seem very much of the mind that they want to control everything, reportedly the coup was because the NRL club was making decides they disagree with. It just doesn’t compute that they will be interested in staying as owner if they can’t make decisions (nsw cup team as magpies, ugly crayon orange jersey to troll Balmain fans, anger at majority games at CSS because of previous feud with Wests Group).
Cant we agree on that? Seems to me that everyone agrees that HBG needs to be kept away from making the decisions for the WT.
The only logical end point is a change of ownership because a lobotomised HBG ownership model incongruent with HBg’s behaviour to date. What do you think the best ownership model would be if HBg were to look to sell?
I strongly disagree. I think the most logical end point is that the NRL either appoint an administrator and/or establish a governance protocol that ensures an independent WT board. It will require establishing the changes to the shareholders agreement and would provide the oppotunity for HBG to set rules for what it wont tolerate as well (triggers for the owner to step in/non negotiables etc). This is professional governence. This is not the first time in the corporate world that this situation has arisen and its not rocket surgery to fix it. That would return to the status quo ante of last Sunday, provide the club with enough stability to progress and hopefully lock in a system for sustained stability.
With regards to the "best ownership model if HBG were looking to sell", I think everyone pushing for new owners are making the same mistake that Daniel Paton, Dennis Burgess and the rest of the lunatics at HBG/Wests Group are making, by assuming that this club can survive yet another upheaval and that after we fix this upheaval we will be ok. IMO this is not true. IMO we are already there at the edge of the cliff and I genuinely do not believe the club will survive it. Any protracted ownership/management squabble immediately spells the end of Richo (quite possibly gone already) and Luai & Bula will follow. If we blame the Galvin incident last year for poor results, then that will be like a kids party compared to what this will do. Lose Richo/Luai/Bula, back to the bottom of the ladder, every agent advising their talent not to sign with us, back to paying overs for has beens and the ultimate death of this club.
IMO the only chance we have is fast, sharp action by NRL (PVL).
“This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.” T.S. Elliott
Sorry- typo. We all CAN agree
i do disagree though with the idea that WT needs a special ownership model where the actual owner needs to be forcibly kept away from decisions because they are incompetent. Any normal club doesn’t need this protection and as far as I am aware we are the only one who needs an independent NRL board to be forced through by the NrL because the owners are absolute baboons. Implicit in the need for a structural separation between owner and club is that the owner should not be involved in decisions. At that point, HBg would be mad not to sell the club (the press is reporting a syndicate has valued it at $50m which seems right to me) because they would be getting a huge cash payment for something that the NRL could make worthless if they took their license away.
Sorry- typo. We all CAN agree
i do disagree though with the idea that WT needs a special ownership model where the actual owner needs to be forcibly kept away from decisions because they are incompetent. Any normal club doesn’t need this protection and as far as I am aware we are the only one who needs an independent NRL board to be forced through by the NrL because the owners are absolute baboons. Implicit in the need for a structural separation between owner and club is that the owner should not be involved in decisions. At that point, HBg would be mad not to sell the club (the press is reporting a syndicate has valued it at $50m which seems right to me) because they would be getting a huge cash payment for something that the NRL could make worthless if they took their license away.
Dont get me wrong, IMO HBG are incompetent baboons and I would very much like them completely gone. To answer your previous question, if there was a generous consortium or benefactor that was prepared to keep pouring the millions in, keeping us WT, keeping us in Sydney (LO/CSS), promising to stay out of football operations (why would ANY owners want to not have control) that the NRL was happy with and that could be made to happen painlessly overnight.....I'd sign up to that overnight.
My point is that there are way to many hurdles and traps that exist for the perfect scenario to happen and IMO any of those hurdles could potentially be terminal for a functional Wests Tigers playing in Sydney, whereas there is an actual, realistic solution available that immediately removes those hurdles/pitfalls.
Sorry- typo. We all CAN agree
i do disagree though with the idea that WT needs a special ownership model where the actual owner needs to be forcibly kept away from decisions because they are incompetent. Any normal club doesn’t need this protection and as far as I am aware we are the only one who needs an independent NRL board to be forced through by the NrL because the owners are absolute baboons. Implicit in the need for a structural separation between owner and club is that the owner should not be involved in decisions. At that point, HBg would be mad not to sell the club (the press is reporting a syndicate has valued it at $50m which seems right to me) because they would be getting a huge cash payment for something that the NRL could make worthless if they took their license away.
Dont get me wrong, IMO HBG are incompetent baboons and I would very much like them completely gone. To answer your previous question, if there was a generous consortium or benefactor that was prepared to keep pouring the millions in, keeping us WT, keeping us in Sydney (LO/CSS), promising to stay out of football operations (why would ANY owners want to not have control) that the NRL was happy with and that could be made to happen painlessly overnight.....I'd sign up to that overnight.
My point is that there are way to many hurdles and traps that exist for the perfect scenario to happen and IMO any of those hurdles could potentially be terminal for a functional Wests Tigers playing in Sydney, whereas there is an actual, realistic solution available that immediately removes those hurdles/pitfalls.
i guess this is why my preferred option is wests group takeover; they are twice as wealthy as Ashfield, control out junior base, were involved previously and have existing relationships with WT (Richo seems close) and have proper corporate governance governance
Sorry- typo. We all CAN agree
i do disagree though with the idea that WT needs a special ownership model where the actual owner needs to be forcibly kept away from decisions because they are incompetent. Any normal club doesn’t need this protection and as far as I am aware we are the only one who needs an independent NRL board to be forced through by the NrL because the owners are absolute baboons. Implicit in the need for a structural separation between owner and club is that the owner should not be involved in decisions. At that point, HBg would be mad not to sell the club (the press is reporting a syndicate has valued it at $50m which seems right to me) because they would be getting a huge cash payment for something that the NRL could make worthless if they took their license away.
Dont get me wrong, IMO HBG are incompetent baboons and I would very much like them completely gone. To answer your previous question, if there was a generous consortium or benefactor that was prepared to keep pouring the millions in, keeping us WT, keeping us in Sydney (LO/CSS), promising to stay out of football operations (why would ANY owners want to not have control) that the NRL was happy with and that could be made to happen painlessly overnight.....I'd sign up to that overnight.
My point is that there are way to many hurdles and traps that exist for the perfect scenario to happen and IMO any of those hurdles could potentially be terminal for a functional Wests Tigers playing in Sydney, whereas there is an actual, realistic solution available that immediately removes those hurdles/pitfalls.
i guess this is why my preferred option is wests group takeover; they are twice as wealthy as Ashfield, control out junior base, were involved previously and have existing relationships with WT (Richo seems close) and have proper corporate governance governance
It would probably be the low friction option if ownership is transferred.
Sorry- typo. We all CAN agree
i do disagree though with the idea that WT needs a special ownership model where the actual owner needs to be forcibly kept away from decisions because they are incompetent. Any normal club doesn’t need this protection and as far as I am aware we are the only one who needs an independent NRL board to be forced through by the NrL because the owners are absolute baboons. Implicit in the need for a structural separation between owner and club is that the owner should not be involved in decisions. At that point, HBg would be mad not to sell the club (the press is reporting a syndicate has valued it at $50m which seems right to me) because they would be getting a huge cash payment for something that the NRL could make worthless if they took their license away.
Dont get me wrong, IMO HBG are incompetent baboons and I would very much like them completely gone. To answer your previous question, if there was a generous consortium or benefactor that was prepared to keep pouring the millions in, keeping us WT, keeping us in Sydney (LO/CSS), promising to stay out of football operations (why would ANY owners want to not have control) that the NRL was happy with and that could be made to happen painlessly overnight.....I'd sign up to that overnight.
My point is that there are way to many hurdles and traps that exist for the perfect scenario to happen and IMO any of those hurdles could potentially be terminal for a functional Wests Tigers playing in Sydney, whereas there is an actual, realistic solution available that immediately removes those hurdles/pitfalls.
i guess this is why my preferred option is wests group takeover; they are twice as wealthy as Ashfield, control out junior base, were involved previously and have existing relationships with WT (Richo seems close) and have proper corporate governance governance
It would probably be the low friction option if ownership is transferred.
wests group with a completely air tight constitution that guarantees WT as the NRL brand and independent board. I actually would exclude Balmain as well as HBg as they don’t really contribute to the JV much (other than warehouse juniors that we recruit from outside our catchment). If Balmain want to align with WT then great but if they would rather align with eels etc then good luck.
@tiger5150 I could not give a crap what happens or how it happens but HBG has to GO ! The place needs to be burnt to the ground then rebuilt from the ashes . If it’s not so be it ..this club is a shit hole and has been for 25yrs . Some direct thinking needs to happen here there needs to be change and change in a big way. Talk of all these structural systems is totally irrelevant to what is happening the cancer has to be cut OUT then the rebuilding can be begin .What has transpired this week has effectively destroyed this club for years either way HBG retains control the club continues as a Shit feast and becomes the Magpies of the late 90’s ..if it’s sold it takes years to garner success .At this moment things are very simple and is not complicated this club is on life support.
HBG arent going anywhere....
what the hell is this? Why do we or the league owe anything to HBg? PVL can take a long walk off a short pier if he thinks fans will accept just a smoothing over and a few promises that they won’t bring back the magpies? WTF? If we just let HBg tell nrl hq that they have everything under control, nothing to see here then we are epically f*+#ed. There is no future with hgb.
