For now you are correct. Unless our on field fortunes turn around I don’t believe it will stay that way.The NRL will get involved when the supporters and sponsors are no longer there and the club becomes financially insolvent. Fans are becoming disillusioned with the club, it won’t be long before that spills over to the sponsors.
Edit: remember we used to get 55k to Stadium Australia, the best we can do now is 28k. This can’t go on
I don't think so Mike, it's not trending that way at all.
You have to give Pascoe and co credit - despite the downward trend in results, the club is still turning a profit; in fact their profitability is increasing if Pascoe's recent slides are anything to go by. And they achieve 20K members annually despite not making the finals.
Maybe we have hit a critical moment where it all falls apart, but I just don't feel that - a couple of wins and a bit of hope and those rusted-on fans keep turning up. I think what you are talking about would take more years yet of catastrophic results.
Look at Newcastle - they still hold the NRL record for consecutive losses, have barely raised their Standard since those wooden spoons, but the faithful keep turning up in support and eventual hope for a return to glory days.
Also, unfortunately, sponsors don't prioritise winners, they prioritise media coverage, brand recognition and sales boosts. Tigers still rank highly in all of those fields, which is why we have arguably improved sponsorship in the last few years (compare HerbalLife to Brydens, also KFC, Telstra, Steeden, Zurich, Elmo, VB etc.)
Lastly - NRL fully covers the salary cap and Wests Ashfield chip in $1M per year, with much more capacity to support the club if necessary - all without sponsorship. Then Tigers have been able to afford to spend something like double the amount on Football Ops in the past 2 seasons compared to previous seasons, so they are not trending down financially.
For now you are correct. Unless our on field fortunes turn around I don’t believe it will stay that way.The NRL will get involved when the supporters and sponsors are no longer there and the club becomes financially insolvent. Fans are becoming disillusioned with the club, it won’t be long before that spills over to the sponsors.
Edit: remember we used to get 55k to Stadium Australia, the best we can do now is 28k. This can’t go on
I don't think so Mike, it's not trending that way at all.
You have to give Pascoe and co credit - despite the downward trend in results, the club is still turning a profit; in fact their profitability is increasing if Pascoe's recent slides are anything to go by. And they achieve 20K members annually despite not making the finals.
Maybe we have hit a critical moment where it all falls apart, but I just don't feel that - a couple of wins and a bit of hope and those rusted-on fans keep turning up. I think what you are talking about would take more years yet of catastrophic results.
Look at Newcastle - they still hold the NRL record for consecutive losses, have barely raised their Standard since those wooden spoons, but the faithful keep turning up in support and eventual hope for a return to glory days.
Also, unfortunately, sponsors don't prioritise winners, they prioritise media coverage, brand recognition and sales boosts. Tigers still rank highly in all of those fields, which is why we have arguably improved sponsorship in the last few years (compare HerbalLife to Brydens, also KFC, Telstra, Steeden, Zurich, Elmo, VB etc.)
Lastly - NRL fully covers the salary cap and Wests Ashfield chip in $1M per year, with much more capacity to support the club if necessary - all without sponsorship. Then Tigers have been able to afford to spend something like double the amount on Football Ops in the past 2 seasons compared to previous seasons, so they are not trending down financially.
I think we are probably past that point but we can’t see it yet. By the time we notice it, it will be too late. IMO if the club can’t climb out in 12months we are done.
The counter to the talk about Pascoes reign being good financially with profits and 20k membership, would be to ask:
'how profitable and how many members would be have is we.... MADE the finals for 10 years instead of NOT making them.'
We would easily be the biggest club in Sydney and be competing with Broncos and Storm for off field success.
So, under that scenario, I don't see the club performing well financially or with membership.
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The easier way to say what I was trying to say above is:
Saying Pascoe has done a great job by making a profit is like saying the CEO of Coke has done a great job by making a $1m profit - but if you only knew that if you ran coke well it would make $1b profit.
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The counter to the talk about Pascoes reign being good financially with profits and 20k membership, would be to ask:
'how profitable and how many members would be have is we.... MADE the finals for 10 years instead of NOT making them.'
We would easily be the biggest club in Sydney and be competing with Broncos and Storm for off field success.
So, under that scenario, I don't see the club performing well financially or with membership.
In fairness, we weren't doing well financially in 05, 10 and 11.
Though there is no doubt we would be performing a lot better now financially if we could win a game of football.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
In fairness, we weren't doing well financially in 05, 10 and 11.
No clubs made a profit back then and memberships weren't really a thing back then either.
Since the club grant covers the players salary plaus a couple of mill on top - there isn't really an excuse for any club not to make a profit.
If we had of had the success of a club like the Roosters, we would have memberships of at least double say 40-50k
@Garry do you think that's an exaggeration?
I mean we have 20k membership after making the finals 3 times in 23 years
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Is the intention to approach the board of Holman Barnes? Approaching wests tigers board or worst still management would not be productive in my view
In fairness, we weren't doing well financially in 05, 10 and 11.
No clubs made a profit back then and memberships weren't really a thing back then either.
Since the club grant covers the players salary plaus a couple of mill on top - there isn't really an excuse for any club not to make a profit.
If we had of had the success of a club like the Roosters, we would have memberships of at least double say 40-50k
@Garry do you think that's an exaggeration?
I mean we have 20k membership after making the finals 3 times in 23 years
No I'm not denying we would be doing much better financially if we were winning football games. Just still think it is a pretty good effort to be doing this well financially when we have sucked for 23 years.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
Agree it's amazing we are still functioning as a club - given how poor our record is.
I guess I was just trying to say, that shouldn't be seen as success, because for the most part, our record is poor because of self inflected, poor decisions by administration (over multiple CEOs and Board makeups)
It's been in the club administrations control and power to make this club successful on and off the field - but they haven't becuase of too may errors of judgement or poor management.
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Is the intention to approach the board of Holman Barnes? Approaching wests tigers board or worst still management would not be productive in my view
As we have been working closely with the club, I believe that it is respectful and professional to approach them first. I don't want to preempt that too much but in all honesty I do not expect them to respond well to what we have to say.
After that the intention would be to build pressure through fan and media support. I believe the only true way to get change at this club is to build enough pressure for the Holman Barnes Group to feel compelled to make changes and to override the culture of self-preservation. I think it is important to have a very clear message around the current structures, why they are not working and strategies for change. Ranting "Sack Pascoe" doesn't achieve anything. If those messages can be delivered through media support in a clear, passionate, calm and professional manner then I believe that is much harder to dismiss than a old man yelling at clouds.
I think the first step in all of that is to call for a proper club wide independent review, including at board level, that would hopefully lead to more professional and rigorous recruitment strategies for key positions within the club. The independent review is important as looking from the outside like we all are it is very difficult to determine where the issues are. We can all guess and are probably right but I think it is important to get these things right.
These are all only my own ideas and are likely to morph as more people get involved.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
I completely agree that an independent review is needed in order to set the right structure (both board and admin) for sustained success.
I would also add, that there needs to be a strong focus on rebuilding a relationship between the club and its supporters. This is something I would consider a core objective for any sports club - if not for the pragmatic reason its its customers.
I'm sure a KPMG style review would recommend the best option for org structure - but I think another expert is needed in rebuilding the trust and relationship with its core supporters.
If managed well, this would be the making of the club and could foster a 'heart and soul' with real supporters at its core, which is a real issue as the media always point out that the club has no identity.
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I hope this gets traction. One potential problem is the Holmans Barnes group corporate governance itself is atrocious and the entire existing a structure is deliberate. My fear is that HB is going to have an extremely high tolerance for public pressure to bring an independent review of governance and structure given it has been designed by HB to directly serve their agenda.
i suspect to deflect from the corporate governance issue it will become a sack Pascoe end game.
I hope this gets traction. One potential problem is the Holmans Barnes group corporate governance itself is atrocious and the entire existing a structure is deliberate. My fear is that HB is going to have an extremely high tolerance for public pressure to bring an independent review of governance and structure given it has been designed by HB to directly serve their agenda.
i suspect to deflect from the corporate governance issue it will become a sack Pascoe end game.
Yes 100% correct, the Holman Barnes Group is set up in such a way that a tiny amount of people end up with all the power. Some of those same people are on our board, there is very little reason to make changes when the entire power block is 20 people.
I think a spokeperson needs to have a very good understanding of that structure and the set up of the group to highlight the issues with that structure.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
Man, imagine getting a meeting with Pascoe and pitching him the idea where he resigns.
It's like my friend, when I asked if he had any creative suggestions to pitch to the club, said "win more". So I said "thanks DH, imagine going to a meeting with the club management and proposing that it's as simple as winning more games."
I'm sure I remember you saying at some point that if they win all the negativity will stop lol.
Ah that would have been my opening line, before we moved to something more constructive and less obvious, working with reality and what we had available.
See, your opening gambit should always be "OK so none of us are morons, so we can all agree that there is an obvious solution that is, in fact, very difficult to achieve". And if any of them look at you moronically, then you know who to stop engaging with.
@jirskyr out of interest, were they actual numbers or just charts without $ value showing a trend? And are these audited results or are we just trusting Pascoe?
The club has turned a profit the last 5 years or so, that profit is just above break even point. That is actually very respectable in the NRL where most club lose money, I believe there was a loss last year due to the payouts to a number of staff.
Financial issues are not an area that is going to bring about change at the Wests Tigers. There needs to be continual pressure in regards to on field results to generate enough groundswell and media focus to facilitate that change.
I was just asking how we know for sure what they are telling us all is the truth.
I know you were mate, I have actually spoken with him about this, as I think Jirskyr has as well. i have no doubt that what he is saying is true, I just don't think they are far above breakeven.
I think the main point is actually that they are much further above break-even than they used to be, with the NRL now funding 100% of the salary cap. Clubs like Tigers, who always had a fair hold on their Football Ops spending, suddenly find themselves in the black when Dad increases their annual allowance. Other clubs like Dogs and Manly were reportedly way over-spending, so even with the NRL funding the cap, they still spent way above their annual income.
So what Pascoe is really trumpeting is not a huge windfall every year, but a large increase in the amount of money invested into Football Ops, including pathways and facilities. And that part is evident, you only have to compare the staffing and facilities of 5 years ago and today, to see the difference.
But perhaps like Penrith used to experience, we just aren't seeing much outcome yet from these recent investments. E.g. the CoE is less than 12 months old, Matt Betsey only started in 2022, we sacked our coach and have an entirely new coaching and performance team etc.
