I still maintain if we went back to old leather balls a lot of the forward pass issues go away
But the goal kickers would go bonkers lol
Old Leather Balls himself..
Better leather than none
I thought this referred to brain transplants for on field officials
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
I don't think the physics of what barra said works at all - I'm going to guess that many, perhaps most passes speed up compared to being held by a runner, because the passer supplies power to make the ball move.
To think of it another way - most passes should cover distance much more quickly than if the ball was being carried by a runner, which means they must by definition move faster. So picture, for instance, a quality cut-out pass that covers half the field - simply no way the ball can be carried that quickly, and actually most big passes involve the passer slowing down, so they have more wind-up power and control.
Last article I saw the NRL were working with a type of Hawkeye-like technology that could track the relative ball position on the field. They weren't judging forward passes by straight lines on the field, because as noted, passes from a runner will travel forward relative to the point the ball was release. Rather, the technology they were looking at was basically measuring whether passes left the player's hands in a backwards direction (or not) - which is the law of the pass.
I assume it's fairly complicated to measure the physics and why they need some kind of ball chip and multi-angle system to measure ball movement relative to the camera. Probably also in a fashion similar to how cricket cams predict ball trajectory for LBW referrals.
Annesley did say at the time - if the technology could not get it right near 100% of the time then there was no point introducing it.
Sorry I should have made the point that the only ball speed measured is the speed in a field end-to-end direction. Sideways (lateral) speed is not measured.
A player running straight down-field at say 15.0k/p/h who throws a pass marginally forward then registers a ball speed of say 15.1k/p/h and can be ruled instantly. A fair pass would register less than 15k/p/h and a 'flat' pass would remain at 15.0k/p/h).
A player running sideways at say .1k/p/h who throws a pass will show ball speed that either increases (forward), decreases (fair) or remains the same (flat).
So really this is simply measuring what we call backwards or forwards out of the hand.
A ball that is knocked on will similarly show an increase in speed if it does indeed travel forward off the hands.
And I agree with Annesley, it needs to be 100% reliable or not at all. The Hawkeye tech is very accurate, and I imagine a chip in ball with enhanced tracking around the ground would also be incrementally accurate, which is what is needed.
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
As per my above post mate - it makes no difference what the player is going provided the ball is being tracked in field end-to-end travel. It either accelerates out of the hands (forward) decelerates out of the hands (fair) or maintains the exact same speed (flat - also fair).
The idea is good but it doesn't work, the balls speed down the field could be increasing as the players releases the ball.
I also think most flick passes would be increasing in speed as thrown due to the mechanics of moving the ball behind your back slowing the balls forward progress and then increasing again as the ball passes behind your back.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
But with the flick pass, all that acceleration is happening in a backward direction when it leaves the hand if flicked so will be OK; if with soft hands the speed won't change, = flat.
And if the ball speed toward the opponent line increases when it leaves the hand it's forward, simple as that.
I'd say the biggest hurdle will be calculating exactly when the ball leaves the hand. Everything is measurable!
But with the flick pass, all that acceleration is happening in a backward direction when it leaves the hand if flicked so will be OK; if with soft hands the speed won't change, = flat.
And if the ball speed toward the opponent line increases when it leaves the hand it's forward, simple as that.I'd say the biggest hurdle will be calculating exactly when the ball leaves the hand. Everything is measurable!
No, there will be no acceleration backwards as you are not factoring the movement of the player. If the player is running forward at 20km an hour when he starts the motion for a flick pass he moves the ball backwards past his side decreasing the balls forward progress to say 15km/h as the ball flattens out to go behind his back the forward speed of the ball will be increasing back towards the 20km/h player speed as he releases the ball thus triggering the forward pass indicator on a ball thrown backwards.
This isn't even raising the issue of a player changing direction on the field and the impact that has on the ball forward progress speed. Anytime a player passes while changing direction that would effect the forward speed of a ball.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
Sorry but you are not taking into account the movement of the player. The player could be directly moving towards the opponents goal line, going sideways, even backwards. The body itself could be twisting while in motion. The ball could travel in any direction relative to the player passing the ball, relative to his teammates, relative to the opposition or relative to the opponents goal line. It just isn’t possible without a more precise definition of what a forward pass actually is. You first have to define precisely what a forward pass is and then, maybe, a tech solution is possible.
Anyway the less tech has to do with the game is better for the game IMO. As a seperate matter the bunker is currently running the game not the ref or touchies. It should be the ref not any tech.
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
I don't think the physics of what barra said works at all - I'm going to guess that many, perhaps most passes speed up compared to being held by a runner, because the passer supplies power to make the ball move.
To think of it another way - most passes should cover distance much more quickly than if the ball was being carried by a runner, which means they must by definition move faster. So picture, for instance, a quality cut-out pass that covers half the field - simply no way the ball can be carried that quickly, and actually most big passes involve the passer slowing down, so they have more wind-up power and control.
Last article I saw the NRL were working with a type of Hawkeye-like technology that could track the relative ball position on the field. They weren't judging forward passes by straight lines on the field, because as noted, passes from a runner will travel forward relative to the point the ball was release. Rather, the technology they were looking at was basically measuring whether passes left the player's hands in a backwards direction (or not) - which is the law of the pass.
I assume it's fairly complicated to measure the physics and why they need some kind of ball chip and multi-angle system to measure ball movement relative to the camera. Probably also in a fashion similar to how cricket cams predict ball trajectory for LBW referrals.
Annesley did say at the time - if the technology could not get it right near 100% of the time then there was no point introducing it.
The physics works perfectly, if you only think in one dimension, up and down the field. Hypothetically, if the technology only measured the balls speed in one axis it would work in every case and scenario and the ball "floating" forward problem is taken out of it. If the balls velocity increases towards the opposition line, its a forward pass, if it stays the same or slows its legal.
I have never thought of it that way, I always assume it was some sort of ball tracking or "hawk eye" thing, but that system makes a lot of sense and would work in every situation.
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
I don't think the physics of what barra said works at all - I'm going to guess that many, perhaps most passes speed up compared to being held by a runner, because the passer supplies power to make the ball move.
To think of it another way - most passes should cover distance much more quickly than if the ball was being carried by a runner, which means they must by definition move faster. So picture, for instance, a quality cut-out pass that covers half the field - simply no way the ball can be carried that quickly, and actually most big passes involve the passer slowing down, so they have more wind-up power and control.
Last article I saw the NRL were working with a type of Hawkeye-like technology that could track the relative ball position on the field. They weren't judging forward passes by straight lines on the field, because as noted, passes from a runner will travel forward relative to the point the ball was release. Rather, the technology they were looking at was basically measuring whether passes left the player's hands in a backwards direction (or not) - which is the law of the pass.
I assume it's fairly complicated to measure the physics and why they need some kind of ball chip and multi-angle system to measure ball movement relative to the camera. Probably also in a fashion similar to how cricket cams predict ball trajectory for LBW referrals.
Annesley did say at the time - if the technology could not get it right near 100% of the time then there was no point introducing it.
The physics works perfectly, if you only think in one dimension, up and down the field. Hypothetically, if the technology only measured the balls speed in one axis it would work in every case and scenario and the ball "floating" forward problem is taken out of it. If the balls velocity increases towards the opposition line, its a forward pass, if it stays the same or slows its legal.
I have never thought of it that way, I always assume it was some sort of ball tracking or "hawk eye" thing, but that system makes a lot of sense and would work in every situation.
But it wouldn't work in every situation as there are other variables in play. If a player is accelerating and passes the ball backwards it is still possible for the ball to go backwards out of the hands and still increase it's forward speed..
That is without going into how a change of direction of a player can increase the balls forward speed.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
If this eventuates they will need to redefine a forward pass me thinks. Anyone moving at a pace and throws a flat pass will effectively be throwing a forward pass, it's psychics. The ball will travel forward as a result, not relative to themselves or their team mates, relative to the ground. I can see this going very wrong.....
Just revisiting this old chestnut...
To answer your question @mike there is no need to redefine anything. The ball speed would be constantly monitored, if it slows that's a fair pass, if the ball speed increases that's a forward pass. And it's in real time so it can be immediately ruled on just as if the ref blew the whistle.
I know many aren't a fan but for mine if they get the ball tech right it solves a heap of problems... including whether the ball is actually knocked on or not. But it will need to be extremely accurate to do this.
What if a player is accelerating as he passes the ball?
I don't think the physics of what barra said works at all - I'm going to guess that many, perhaps most passes speed up compared to being held by a runner, because the passer supplies power to make the ball move.
To think of it another way - most passes should cover distance much more quickly than if the ball was being carried by a runner, which means they must by definition move faster. So picture, for instance, a quality cut-out pass that covers half the field - simply no way the ball can be carried that quickly, and actually most big passes involve the passer slowing down, so they have more wind-up power and control.
Last article I saw the NRL were working with a type of Hawkeye-like technology that could track the relative ball position on the field. They weren't judging forward passes by straight lines on the field, because as noted, passes from a runner will travel forward relative to the point the ball was release. Rather, the technology they were looking at was basically measuring whether passes left the player's hands in a backwards direction (or not) - which is the law of the pass.
I assume it's fairly complicated to measure the physics and why they need some kind of ball chip and multi-angle system to measure ball movement relative to the camera. Probably also in a fashion similar to how cricket cams predict ball trajectory for LBW referrals.
Annesley did say at the time - if the technology could not get it right near 100% of the time then there was no point introducing it.
The physics works perfectly, if you only think in one dimension, up and down the field. Hypothetically, if the technology only measured the balls speed in one axis it would work in every case and scenario and the ball "floating" forward problem is taken out of it. If the balls velocity increases towards the opposition line, its a forward pass, if it stays the same or slows its legal.
I have never thought of it that way, I always assume it was some sort of ball tracking or "hawk eye" thing, but that system makes a lot of sense and would work in every situation.
But it wouldn't work in every situation as there are other variables in play. If a player is accelerating and passes the ball backwards it is still possible for the ball to go backwards out of the hands and still increase it's forward speed..
That is without going into how a change of direction of a player can increase the balls forward speed.
In memory of Geoff Chisholm (1965-2022)
But with the flick pass, all that acceleration is happening in a backward direction when it leaves the hand if flicked so will be OK; if with soft hands the speed won't change, = flat.
And if the ball speed toward the opponent line increases when it leaves the hand it's forward, simple as that.I'd say the biggest hurdle will be calculating exactly when the ball leaves the hand. Everything is measurable!
No, there will be no acceleration backwards as you are not factoring the movement of the player. If the player is running forward at 20km an hour when he starts the motion for a flick pass he moves the ball backwards past his side decreasing the balls forward progress to say 15km/h as the ball flattens out to go behind his back the forward speed of the ball will be increasing back towards the 20km/h player speed as he releases the ball thus triggering the forward pass indicator on a ball thrown backwards.
This isn't even raising the issue of a player changing direction on the field and the impact that has on the ball forward progress speed. Anytime a player passes while changing direction that would effect the forward speed of a ball.
Garry, I know you were a teacher, but clearly not physics. Barra is spot on with this. In your scenario if he is running at 20km/hr then the ball is doing 20km, when he flicks backwards the ball slows to 15km/h then the ball is accelerating in that direction and will NOT accelerate up to 20km/h in that direction without a force acting on it in that direction (a forward pass). Remember Force = Mass x acceleration therefore acceleration = force/mass.
TLDR the acceleration (increase in velocity) of the ball can not increase in a direction without an increase in force acting in that direction which is literally the definition of a forward pass.
Ive always been against the idea because I thought it was fraught with "floating forward" problems, but this is an elegant and surprisingly simple solution.
